Episode 91 - Can A Business Be Christian? with Curtis Chang
Today we put an end to an age-old question—can a business itself have spiritual meaning? For years as Entrepreneurs, we’ve been called to live out our faith in our individual work activities and relationships. But we are fundamentally about building business enterprises. Can we take it a step further to conceive of the enterprise—the organization itself—as having spiritual significance?
Curtis Chang is our guest who’s recently come out with some work that makes the case for all organizations—including secular organizations—as having a deeper spiritual meaning than what Christians have typically been taught.
Curtis straddles the world of secular organizations and Christian thinking. He is the Founder and CEO of Consulting Within Reach, a management consulting firm serving secular nonprofits across the country. He has won national recognition from the White House for innovative work in the social sector and teaches on the faculty of American University. At the same time, he is a former pastor, is a Senior Fellow at Fuller Seminary, and is a professor at Duke Divinity School.
He’s a deep thinker and someone who we found engaging, encouraging, and challenging, and we think you will too. As always, thanks for listening.
If you have thoughts or questions from today’s show, let us know!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
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Henry [00:03:04] So welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast, it is great to have you back. We have a special guest today, Curtis Chang. Curtis and I had a conversation about three months ago that really, really intrigued me. We've got a lot in common. And no, it's not that we both graduated summa cum laude from Harvard, could not go to the university of Delaware. But we do share something very much in common. And that is a passion for looking back at the Old Testament in Genesis in particular about what the biblical narrative means for us is not raw. And we are particularly shared a passion about the story of the Tower of Babel. You might have heard me mentioned before in other editions that I've got a painting of Tower of Babel in my office. It's the largest when I have it inspires me, encourages me, and really makes me think about what does it look like when this broader community of faith driven entrepreneurs come together, when the body of Christ comes together to build something beautiful? Not for our name to make us famous, but to make God famous. That's something that Chris shares as well. And we absolutely want to talk about that. But, Chris, before we get into the biblical narrative. Who are you? Where do you come from?
Curtis [00:04:11] Yeah, well, for the last 14 years, I've been a faith driven entrepreneur myself. I've started my own management consulting firm that serves other organizations, primarily secular. And my my firm is a secular firm, but I'm a faith driven entrepreneur. So I've been starting my own company. And then I've also been advising and cults whole thing with numerous folks, mostly non-Christians, but some Christians as well, who are driven to start their own social enterprises as well. And the reason why I think we're meeting up on this particular topic is several years ago I began trying to reflect more deeply on the spiritual meaning of my own work. What is God's perspective and the ultimate eternal significance of this work that I'm doing? And really to answer that question. I realized you have to have a story to tell about how God cares or doesn't care about the organization itself, because most of my work is about founding and building this enterprise and then helping other people build their enterprises, their organizations. So to have spiritual meaning for my work, I realize I have to have an account for why the organization, the institution, the enterprise itself matters or doesn't matter to God. And I realize that much of pretty much everything I've read in Christian theology and thinking completely neglected the central question does the organization itself matter to God? Does it have a place in God's big story? And I like to contrast the absence of that account with my previous vocation. So before I was an entrepreneur or starting my own Madgwick consulting firm, I was actually both a campus pastor and a church pastor.
[00:05:54] And what was striking to me was that in my work in those roles, I had a very robust account for why that work mattered, because the object of my work, my ministry had a rich theology to it. I mean, you know, when I was a minister to individual students, we have a very rich theology, a story to tell about why the individual matters to God, whether they're Christian or not Christian. They're made in the image of God. They're even though they've sinned, they are redeemed by Christ. Their ultimate destiny is to be reunited with the father. Like all of that. Right. That's what got me out of bed in the morning to go do this work as a church pastor. I had an account for why the church matters. Made of the image of Christ, the bride of Christ, the body of Christ, similarly to be redeemed and ultimately reunited at the wedding feast, the lamb. What's striking, Henry, is that for the millions of Christians who work in secular organizations or not or any organization or for the faith driven entrepreneurs starting his or her organization, we do not have the equivalent account of what is that object mean? Like, what is that? Does it have any spiritual significance? Does any spiritual value in the way that we know individuals or a church does? So that's what I became intent on trying to figure out. And one of the great joys of my last several years has been discovering how much scripture has to say about the meaning and its place in God's big story of the organization itself.
Henry [00:07:19] So I want to hear more about that. You know, one of the frameworks I've always heard are often heard is that there are Christian leaders, but there aren't Christian businesses. How would you respond to that? So maybe you're not suggesting that they're Christian businesses, but you're at least suggesting, of course, that the business, not just the person, not just the leader. That's right. You got to expand on that.
Curtis [00:07:40] Yes. So I think the best way to talk about an organization is what is it fundamentally like in its essence? And my answer to that is that actually scripture teaches that all organizations, secular or Christian, whatever you want to label it, but all organizations are made in the image of God that it's not just individuals or the church that's made in the image of God. But organizations in their own way are intended by God to reflect him, to reflect his character and his being. And this is a great truth that somehow has escaped the attention of Christian teaching, such that people don't think of opposition that way, but it's very much conveyed throughout scripture. And if I want to pull out, you know, one passage that most clearly summarizes this would be Colossians one 15 to 17, where Colossians says that Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God first born of all creation. And by him all things were created. All things were created in heaven and earth.
[00:08:44] And so what what's covered in that all things? The scripture says in the very next phrase, it's thrones. Dominion's rulers and authorities. In other words, Clausen's goes out of its way not to say, hey, it's not just individuals or the church that can image God, but the things that can image God include institutions, thrones., demeanors, rulers and authorities and all aspects of those institutions, visible or invisible, which in other words, means that institutions have their own invisible quality as well. They're not just concrete beings. They have, if you will, a spirituality, a spirit. If you want to use that term, they have a soul as well. In its own way. And therefore, the work we do in creating maintaining growing organizations, we are creating growing images of God. Your audience, your typical audience was a faith driven tree. They should think of themselves as sort of like a almost a Greek Orthodox monk who is painstakingly in his or her monastery painting an icon of Christ. They are crafting in their own way an image of Christ. That's what Colossians 115 to something to say. And if we think of our work that way, not only does our work gain in supreme significance, forgot that it becomes an act of worship. You know, that's what worship is reflecting the image of God. But also scripture suddenly opens up with enormous significance and instruction for how we are to image God in our institutional life.
Henry [00:10:09] To tie that back in, if you will, to the creation many or more specifically, the command to take dominion over all things and to name things. So are you suggesting that as we were to name the animals and take dominion over them, we're all set to name companies and take dominion over them, but that God cares about companies like he cares, but don't just help us understand more.
Curtis [00:10:33] Sure. Well, so, look, if we start with the core truth that organizations image God that we see from very beginning, well, what is this God that we are a call to image with our organizations? And Genesis, of course, one of the primary pictures of God as God as a creator. But what does that mean? That God is okay with the image of God as creator? And we find in the Genesis one passage that the creator, God is really intent on organizing and creation and bring order. The problem is that the earth is without form and with an empty. And so God in the Genesis account goes about basically creating or chart of creation. The week of creation is like night goes here, dagos here, the land goes here. The animals are related to the fish this way and so forth. It's an elaborate or chart of creation. God is bringing order. And so if human beings that are to image this creator God, it means human beings themselves are meant to bring order to organize creation. And that's what organizations are. Enterprises. That's what businesses are. They are human expressions of bringing order of organizing creation in a new way. And the most poetic, I think, expression of that human reflection of God's organizing image is in that passage in Genesis to about the human beings call to have dominion. And Dominion just means to bring order to organize creation.
[00:11:58] And the particular expression of that is in naming the animals. And it's a wonderful poetic picture of what it means for human beings. And I think that faith driven entrepreneur to bring new order and new purpose integration, like when Adam was naming a particular piece, Adam is essentially saying you belong in this category and you are connected to this part of creation in this way. And your purpose is this. That's what the biblical meaning of naming is, is calling forth your true identity, your true intended relationship to other parts of creation. And that's what an entrepreneur is doing. An entrepreneur is looking at creation and seeing some aspect of creation saying, wow, if we did this, this would bring a new relationship into being this would bring a new order, new creation. I mean, entrepreneurs basically are saying the world should be connected in this new way. This should be organized in this new way. And that's a perfect expression of the biblical mandate to have dominion and to name creation, because we're reflecting the creator God in that way.
William [00:13:02] Curtis, that's interesting. And as I walk through and I listen to you, I see you've got a big imagination to see you're thinking through what the Genesis mandate means to a company in twenty nineteen. Right. That is really fascinating. And I wonder how you think about maybe more on a practical level as you think about taking that story a step further. How does that impact, you know, a CEO or business leader when they think about individual relationships with other companies, potentially competitors, other employees, other vendors? How do you think that goes forward? How that mandate that God gave us moves forward in a practical maybe everyday way?
Curtis [00:13:41] Sure. So certainly in the creation mandate, if you want to express, how do we then carry this out practically? I think this has a lot to do with how you relate to the world through your external environment as a CEO, is your fundamental posture to the world and your understanding of dominion. Is it domination, for instance? Is it like I'm out to actually crush the competition, take over the space, rule it? That is a distortion of dominion. That's a distortion of how God relates to creation. How God relates Christian is so fascinating, right? God, really, it's Christian. By making room for others, most fundamentally by human beings, by giving human beings real agency purpose and power is Christian. You could have just crushed everything and just said, I'm going to rule it all myself. But he's purposely making room for others to be in relationship with others. What does that mean for an enterprise and a CEO and an enterprise to purposely make room for others to actually practice this mutuality and the sense of like we share this space and we share common purpose. It's really interesting. The Mars company, the large conglomerate of beverages, too, recently did a study in terms of their own practices with their own supply chain and their own ecosystem, like coffee farmers and often down their supply chain.
[00:15:00] And they came across this fascinating finding that the more they practiced mutuality as a company, the higher ROIC they achieved. And so, you know, they've come to realize that mutuality has to be baked into their business model of how they relate, that have to pay attention to how others are sharing power, sharing profits and all that. Well, that's a beautiful, I think, expression of an accurate reflection of God. The creator is one that makes room for others that actually is creating this sort of mutual interdependence and purpose. So that's one example. I think another example would be in the internal structure of one's enterprise and organization. That's actually a key to what a founder and CEO does. What's going to be our internal organizational culture? How are we going to be organized? What are internal relationships are? And there I would actually go even further back than the creation mandate. I would say that goes into actually who is God internally to himself. Right. We have to really sink deep into the fact that the image of God we are given, in addition to the creator and image, is that God himself is an organization, God in itself, as an organizational being. We worship a trying God. It's one of the bizarre but sort of amazing complex pictures of God, images of God that Christianity presents is that our God is father son spirit. Three persons, one being distinct roles, common purpose, interdependent with a shared purpose. That's called an organization, Harkat. We worship an organizational being. What does it mean that if we're supposed to image God with our organizations, that we are bringing it to be. What does it mean for a CEO then to actually craft his or her organization to truly reflect the Trinity, to have the Trinitarian relationships of mutuality, of interdependence, of shared purpose, permeate its organizational culture and Slausen design? I know there's a tremendous amount of wealth of insight and creativity to be found by for a CEO to meditate deeply on that.
William [00:17:03] I think you might be the first guest as well to tell us to go back much further than the creation story. So that's awesome. I've never been instructed to go back much further than the creation story. So that's great.
Curtis [00:17:15] I think the meaning of organizational life for the faith of an entrepreneur should start at the Trinity. It just started at the fact that we are told that human beings are meant to imagine a triune relational organizational God. And by the way, I think it also explains a great deal of why institutions matter so much to God and Scripture is because God realized and this gets to things like the meaning of the Bible story. Is that because God cares so much about organizational being in life, that scripture actually includes an explanation of how we get it wrong, how we fall from a proper imaging of God?
William [00:17:56] Curtis, one more. So I want to think about a company. It can be a real company. It could be an imaginary company. I want to take one step towards. Could you walk us through maybe how you've seen some of these ideas play itself out with entrepreneurs, kind of building an organization, maybe some decisions that you think they've made in this vein that maybe they wouldn't have if they weren't thinking through this lens?
Curtis [00:18:18] Sure. So I'll point to Will, probably one of the biggest debates in business thinking today, which is the what is the purpose of a corporation and what does it exist for? Right. So for decades we've been dominated by the Milton Friedman sort of dogma that a corporation exists solely to achieve maximum profit for its shareholders. That's been the dogma we've been told. What is a corporation? What does it exist? I believe that's a fundamental distortion of the biblical image of God and of the corporation, because, again, the idea of a corporation existing solely to maximize profits for its shareholders is a contradiction to this idea of a God that is making room for others. It's saying, you know, we only exist to make room for a very small set of people, our shareholders, people own our stock. And that's all we exist for in the world. Whereas the picture of God is like, no, God is constantly making room, taking into account the needs of the other in the world, especially the most vulnerable and the weak, those on the margins.
[00:19:22] And I think a classic institutional expression of this in scripture, of course, is God's commandment to Israel in Leviticus 19. So you want to talk about great scripture for CEOs out there. Let me direct them to the Leviticus. How about that? For a biblical guidance, because Leviticus 19, Francis is an explicit rebuke to the Friedman model of a corporation existing solely to maximize profits for shareholders. In Leviticus 19, it's the law of the gleanings, which is essentially saying to Israel's landholders, to Israel's entrepreneurs, look, you cannot maximize your profits for yourselves or for your shareholders. You must leave room on the margins on the sides of your fields for the others, for that the resident alien, for the widow, for the weak. You exist for them also. And so you cannot harvest all the way up to the edges of your field. In other words, you cannot maximize your profits. You exist for something beyond yourselves than just that. I think any Christian that's participating in a discussion about their own company with the meaning of it or other companies has to actually take that into account. That a faithful imaging of God cannot be just you exist solely to maximize your profits. You have to make a profit, of course, but that cannot be your sole definition of what you exist to do.
Rusty [00:20:39] Hey, Curtis, do you see that the winds are blowing sort of this way an industry today? I mean, we have more and more talk about meaning and purpose and mission. I mean, you feel a little winded your back here. And then I know you do a lot of work with non-profits. Maybe you talk a little bit about that because non-profits are even closer to what you just spoke about there. Right.
Curtis [00:21:00] Yes. And so I that's always been true. And I pay us why I've been drawn to work primarily with nonprofits. So the idea that we exist for something beyond ourselves obviously is baked into the very being of the nonprofit sector. But what I think you're talking about is absolutely right, that there is a hunger in the corporate For-Profit world for something beyond just profit maximization. I think there's a number of factors for that. Know, one of them is the realization that that ethic is leading potentially to global disaster, both whether it's income equality or climate change or whatever that. You know, this is if we're going to have a world, a vibrant world where we have customers, we have to take care of a broader set of constituencies and stakeholders than just our shareholders that we have to we have a responsibility to the world. So I think that's one driver for why that wind at the back for search for greater purpose.
[00:21:52] I think also the fact that corporations are hiring this generation, the millennial generation, they are wired for a variety of reasons to want to have a higher sense of purpose than just pure professional advancement. And so they're responding to their own internal pressures among their employees. And if you've paid them to do like with the struggles that Google is facing, for instance, is that corporations are realizing its own internal constituency wants them to be about something more than just profit maximization. So I do think that this is a moment when Christians potentially have a prophetic word to offer the broader secular world an account, a robust account for why organizations, why institutions, why corporations exist. I think the world is hungry for that. We are I think at a moment in a society, in a world, in in something of a crisis of institutions. And by that, I mean the problems that we face as a world to me clearly require robust institutions to solve them. I mean, climate change, energy, income inequality. None of these things are going to be solved by some brilliant individual. I'm sorry. These are institutional issues that institutions have to solve. And at the same time, if you look at all the polls, surveys and the results, just read the sign of the times. Actually, people are more cynical, more distrustful of institutions than ever before. So we need institutions more than we ever have. Yet people are more cynical and doubtful and distrusting of institutions ever before. This is a moment where I think Christians have an opportunity to wade in, to have a robust story, to say why institutions matter. Also why there's reason to actually forward that distrust or skepticism. But at the same time, a hopeful voice for redemption of human organizations as well.
Rusty [00:23:38] Yes, fascinating, actually, I think the dilemma that some entrepreneurs probably find themselves in. Right. Because they are trying to live out the principles that you're espousing, which I think are just beautiful, especially in the context of today that you just articulated. But yet, on the other hand, they are pulled and pushed by the culture. The total, you know, economics that other people's money might push them into. And I'm wondering, you know, if you have any advice for that entrepreneur who feels like they might be caught in between these two worlds, how to navigate, you know, as simply as they can?
Curtis [00:24:18] Yeah, well, I don't know the answers to simply as they can't because I don't think there's a simple answer. There's a truthful biblical answer to that question, which is and I'm going to use a word that is going to sound foreign to many entrepreneurs or turn off in Christian culture, but I have to use it, which is theology. But actually, the way out to resist the pressures of the world is had to be thinking rightly about who God is, who human beings are, what human musicians are truly are, what their role is in the world. Those are theological issues. This is or if you want to use that fancy word, a theology. You know what Paul talks about by the renewing of your mind. Christian entrepreneurs have to renew their mind with right thinking, right understanding, as well as right practice, including spiritual practices that renew the mind and how they think about their works. Otherwise, they absolutely will be blown about, as Paul says here and there, by the spirit of the age, which are powerful today, but it frankly even powerful in every age. And so the task of the Christian church here in this age is to renew their mind, to think deeply and correctly about all of these things that we've been talking about. So they can resist the spirit of the age.
Henry [00:25:30] Curtis I want to shift gears just for a second, because I know that you've done some other work. In addition, obviously, to this space. But you have this operating interest in connecting sources of capital to users.
[00:25:44] And I don't know if that comes from in your work with not for profit entrepreneurs, but every entrepreneur that's looking at this is thinking about how to gain access to capital. We often say that there are three overarching job responsibilities for a leader, for an entrepreneur, whether they're for profit aren't for a not for profit, not sharing. It's distorted the mission and vision to resource the project, resource the enterprise, and then you get the right people on the bus. That middle one seems to be a real focus of yours about resourcing. And how do you see that play out and what are some of the mistakes you see entrepreneurs make? Or just tell us more about your work in that space.
Curtis [00:26:21] Yeah, well, it certainly is the source of great anxiety, of constant need and the constant pressure to have to raise capital. And this is true for nonprofit entrepreneurs who are constantly aiming to raise funding from foundations and philanthropy and donors or from obviously the for profit who are constant looking for their next round. Who's going to be my B C round investor and so forth. You know, and this is where I think if we can give the faith driven entrepreneur this sort of robust thinking, this robust imagination that's not just in their heads, but in their hearts, that they are actually creating the image of God in these enterprises, that they are, like I said, to use the analogy, they are painting this beautiful icon to be placed in the world that is meant to image Christ. I think that puts a proper weighting on this issue of funding. Right. Look at that image is to be truly of God and its of God. It's not your it's not your creation. It's not it's not just a tool. It's something holy, actually. Then I think it increases our capacity to truly trust that God will actually provide for the replication of images in his world. That's what he's about. That's the whole scripture narrative is about God wanting to multiply to see more and more images of himself and declare it is good. And then the Genesis account to go back to that. That's actually the picture of abundance that we see most is when God sees the replication of his images. And then he declares, oh, that's good, that's it. Whenever there's replication reproduction in the creation account, that's when God says, and this is good. And they saw it was very good. And so forth. And that's the picture of a teeming abundance. So to move entreprenuers to a state of abundance mentality where they're not thinking just always, constantly, scarcity need to keep the raise funds. I think it starts with getting them back to that imagination that I am participating in the imaging God and that is where God is most desirous of. Want to release his abundance.
William [00:28:20] It's a great way to come towards a close. Curtis, I really appreciate you walking to entreprenuers through that framework. And as we come to a close, I would really love to always try to figure out where is God taking you today? And it's amazing how God usually weaves that end where listeners are today day. And so if you could. Bring us into your world, where is God's word? Be an open do you in new ways? Could be today. Could be this morning. Something that you're reading could be this season that something you might be meditating on. Just maybe walk us through God's living word is impacting you during this season.
Curtis [00:28:53] Yeah. Well, I'll take you to a funny place which struck me as relaxed. I don't know when this podcast is gonna come out. But as of this moment is recording, the latest episode of Star Wars is about to be replaced by this epic saga. That's hasn't of cultural changing significance. And I was thinking the other day I was talking to a friend. I said, no. What's you like if we were to view the entire Star Wars saga? But we removed all institutions from it. So no empire, no Jedi Order. And then we would tell the Star War stories solely as well. It's a father's. It's a family story. It's a father son story between Darth Vader and Luke. Or it's a story of friends, you know, between on and lands over that. And that story would kind of work at some minimal level, would end together. But how much richer and meaningful the story is by bringing these institutional realities into play, that all these people have institutional relationships to the Empire of the Jedi order and so forth, and that the story really gains the sort of vibrancy and meaning by actually having institutions be part of the story. So what I realized like, oh, that's what I'm trying to do. That's what God's calling me to do with scripture, with the biblical story. I'm trying to bring a story that is so often collapsed to just an individual story or maybe a story of just a family or friends. And I believe that God actually means for the grand epic of scripture to be a story that includes institutions, includes organizations, enterprises, businesses. And that's what gives me both the story, but also to the faith driven entrepreneur who wants to locate his or her work in that big story. And so this season, I think that's just given me fresh within myself like that. That's I'm trying to tell that story. And if people are interested in hearing more of that story, I invite them to actually go to a website that we're launching called Redeeming Dabhol dot com. So it's the words redeeming battle where we try to tell the story, especially to faith driven entrepreneurs to help them realize they and their businesses and their enterprises are part of this grand, multi-faceted, rich and exciting narrative that is found in scripture. This has been great.
Rusty [00:31:05] Thank you. It's fascinating what you're working on. It's an important work. Thanks for sharing it with us today. Well, it's been a pleasure.
Henry [00:31:11] Okay, guys, that was really cool. I love talking to a guy that's that smart about the Bible. Is that thoughtful? I find myself wrestling with things a little bit about whether a business can have a spirituality to it or not, whether it's is a function of a dedicated business for the glory of God. But what, how do you guys all process this?
Rusty [00:31:33] I had the same feeling. I mean, I actually love the idea and the concept because, you know, it's clearly biblically rooted and it's clearly something that we can strive for. I do think there's the flip side of it. We've had many guests who've actually talked about that. You know, sometimes when you tried to spiritualized your organization, you may actually get lost in your own identity as to what's more important, your own spiritual growth, or is it the entity that I'm working so hard for? Right. Doing all the right things, the mission that I'm going after. You know, I'm sure God's going to bless this. And then do you lose your own understanding of what God is trying to do to grow you as the entrepreneur? But I do think that it's exactly right. What Kurt has said is we should work really hard to make this an ad right. Not inor as best we can, but watch the pitfalls that come with it. You know?
[00:32:25] Yeah, that's a great point, Rusty. I've heard a pastor joke before that the greatest job in the world for a workaholic is a pastor and a lot of the same jobs that you can always justify working more if you take some version and distort that view. Right. I mean, well, I'm I'm working for the mission and working for God and that's for God is why I'm not around my family. This is why I can't spend time. He doesn't have to travel so much. All those things. So I do think it's something for our entrepreneurs to wrestle with. And also, I've done a great writing. So Curtis talked about, you know, God. And it's sort of interesting the concept of naming two individual human beings. And he had a quote in one of his writings that said, by God and trusting that what he's telling Adam and Eve to do is they're meant to look deeply at the other beings in creation to discern their true God given nature and potential and help call forth that potential into reality. So no matter where you end on that, I think that's such a beautiful picture of thinking about your employees, your customers, your vendors, thinking about your job. And that naming capacity is looking at each relationship that God has entrusted you to say. My job is. Call for it. Whatever potential I see in there. The reality into the world. That God has here. I think that's really beautiful.
Rusty [00:33:46] That's great. One thing I'm really impressed with that I'm sure our listeners are going to feel. You know, we've had a lot of great podcasts. This is one I'm going to want to go back and listen to again. Right. I'm going to go back and listen to this over and over. Because there's so many nuggets inside of what Curtis had to say.
Henry [00:34:01] So, yes, fortunate blessed is our listening audience has comments and questions to love to have him with. As thoughtful as Curtis is on this and as much work as he's done with entrepreneurs. I think that there may very well be a great second episode in six months or a year. It would be great to have a part of that be some questions that came in from our listeners over time. Where do you stand on this? How do you process this? Where is this an encouragement to you? Where do you start off questions? And that's really the case, of course, with any of the episodes that we have or things that you'd like us to tackle as a group or guess you'd like us to have on as well. It's a great honor, a privilege and blessing to be with you each week. Tell us what we might do to make this time really valuable for you until next week. Awesome me with you all. It always is. May God bless you and your businesses.