Why would a founder decide to never fire anyone?

Dylan Wilk, CEO of Human Nature, joins the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast to share the story behind the company’s no firing policy and to explain why he believes grace and forgiveness are the greatest HR policies. 

He recounts a situation where an employee stole from the company and instead of firing him, Dylan chose to forgive and help him change. 

This experience led Dylan to establish a written no firing policy and build an ecosystem of support within the company that is rooted in the belief that God does not give up on us. 

Dylan emphasizes the importance of seeing the full person at work, understanding their struggles, and providing opportunities for growth and redemption.

Learn more about Dylan’s story in this short documentary.

Joseph Honescko: If you're a frequent follower of the podcast, you might have noticed a bit of a trend week by week. We've been mixing up formats to try to show different elements of the faith driven movement. We love stories. We love roundtable discussions, we love targeted advice from experts, and we love interviews with people from around the world. So that's why you've been getting a bit of all those things with a focus on particular topics. Recently we've been zooming in on company cultures. And last week we told the story about Human Nature, a company from the Philippines who has this wild no firing policy. We thought it'd be worthwhile to dive into that policy. How does an HR system based on Grace actually work day in and day out? And what can other entrepreneurs learn from this radical policy, even if they have no intention of implementing one themselves? I'm Joey Honescko and today on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, Justin Forman and I are going to unpack these questions and more with the CEO of Human Nature, Dylan Wilk. Let's get into it. Welcome back, everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. My name is Joey Honescko and I'm joined by Justin Forman and Justin. We've done almost 300 episodes, and I don't think we've ever covered a no firing policy on the show. And we're going to dive into it. We're going to hear from Dylan, but I just want to address kind of from the start, that it's a pretty intense policy. I mean, it sounds pretty radical to me. Justin, what do you think?

Justin Forman: Radical, indeed. There's probably few topics that we've pushed into that are tough, painful, raw, emotional, so many difficult emotions swirling around it. But when you speak of intense, we have to also acknowledge that with us today is one take. Dylan. And I know that we say one take before, but when we were with Dylan, we had a chance to turn on the cameras, film their story. It's the only interview I've ever done where I've asked one question and one question only, and then the guest takes you through a narrative. And so intense, indeed. Intense, difficult topic to wrestle with. But man a few better people that have thought more deeply about this and have lived it than Dylan. So Dylan, man, it's great to have you here.

Dylan Wilk: Thanks so much, Justin. Thanks so much, Joey. Well, it sounds like I spoke too much on the last interview. Then you only got to say one thing, so I'll try and keep my anwers is a bit shorter this time.

Justin Forman: No, it was great, man. It is so good to be with you again. For those of you guys who have not seen it, and this is just an early chance to point out something that's obvious to Joey and I, but there is just an incredible story that our team put together, showing Dylan and his story. And we're going to get into that today. But what a gift it is to being able to unpack that in a video sense, but also to kind of get the longer form behind the scenes here today. And so, you know, we're going to hear, yeah, some of these topics that hopefully leaves you in a place as a listener just wrestling with this, that there is not a prescriptive way to land this, but there's more of just a wrestling that we want to invoke in that today. Joey. I mean, I think that's kind of what we're getting at. We're not really landing the plane, but we're really kind of wrestling through the difficult nature of that conversation.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, I think that that's the goal for these podcasts, right. Especially these kind of conversational ones where we can dive deep into this thing and you might walk away listening to it and disagree or have notes. But our hope is that at some point you're convicted, you're challenged, and you're provoked just in these ways of saying like, man, what is God calling me to do in my business? How might I think differently about this? And with this such a heavy topic and such a big topic? Let's get into it a little bit, Dylan, and kind of just give us an overview in this story. You tell this kind of wonderful little narrative about a particular employee a few years ago who kind of the trade trust. And that's sort of where you started talking about this no firing policy. So maybe just for listeners grabbing some context, just give us a little overview of that particular story and then talk about how that sort of no firing policy was birthed out of that, or how it was sort of confirmed by that. Just give us some context here.

Dylan Wilk: Yeah. Okay. So we didn't start the company with this policy in place, but we'd been going about, I think 3 or 4 years. And one of our very first employees, we discovered they had been stealing. And the way that he was doing it, he was tasked to go out and buy small supplies for the company, you know, light bulbs, things like that. And he would only buy from companies where they would give a handwritten receipt. Over here in the Philippines, that's quite common among smaller businesses. So they would give a handwritten receipt and he would change maybe an eight to a 0 or 0 to an eight, or add an extra zero, you know, and he would make it look as though the items were more expensive than they really were. And so when I first found out, I was really furious, you know, he was so trusted. He used to even take my kids to school from time to time. That's how close he was to us, one of our first ten employees. And I was really devastated. So I could not see him for, 3 or 4 days. And I was just praying, Lord, what do I do? And the one word that kept coming to me when I would pray was just forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive. And I thought, what? That's so unfair, Lord, you know what are you talking about? He's not going to learn anything. He's just going to get away with it. Is that how this ends? You know, but I kept praying and I kept just getting that word forgive. So I started thinking, okay, so. So what does that mean? How do I do that in a practical way? And so I called the guy in and I sat down with him and I said, I've been reminding myself that you're a good dad and I've made a decision because he had a little daughter. And I said, I've made a decision. I'm not going to give up on you. I'm going to try and find a way to help you get through this. But I want you to explain to me, how could you do this to us after everything we've done to try and help you? And the guy looked at me and he started to cry, and he jumped up and he ran out of the room. And he was in his early 50s. He came back a few days later asking to see me, and we sat down again, and he confessed to me that all his life he'd been a thief. Every job he'd ever had since being a teenager. He'd stolen. He'd get caught, he'd be fired. And then he'd think, okay, I got my punishment, and he'd move on and do it again. And he said, this was the very first time when he realized he was not going to be fired. And I was appealing to his heart, you know, how could you do this to us? It's the first time he felt shame and he said he went home. He couldn't even tell his wife what had happened at first, even though she knew he was a thief, she knew he was doing this. He couldn't even tell her what had happened. And he said he couldn't look himself in the mirror. And so in the end, you know, he paid back all the money. We suspended him for, I think, a couple of weeks. We changed his role. He wasn't allowed to touch the money any more. You know, you don't let the alcoholic into the bar. So we retrained him. We taught him how to clean air conditioning units and things like that. And it took, you know, a while to start to trust him again. For a year or so. He wasn't allowed in the office alone, you know, and we had all of these things. But ultimately he changed. Ultimately he changed. He's still with us now, ten years later, I think 11 years now. And he's a happy guy. He used to be a very grumpy guy. He was always moaning, you know, but now he's changed. He's a changed man. And that's one less thief on the streets. And you know, what I realized was afterwards trying to process it the moment when you make your biggest mistake in life. And yet you realize God still loves you anyway. God still wants to find a way to transform you. You know, that can be the moment at which somebody's whole life changes. And as an employer, you know, we find ourselves in that situation frequently where people mess up badly. But I read a saying once, you know, a bad leader blames his followers when things go wrong. And I think that temptation is very strong as business people, as entrepreneurs, as employers to do that, that when things go wrong, the immediate response is, okay, you messed up. You know, there are 100 other people that want your job. It's time to go. But when we slow down, when we ask God what he really wants, we come up with something different. And this was brought home to me actually in a different way many years ago. When I first arrived in the Philippines, 20 years ago, I'd only been here a couple of weeks, and I was brought to the wake of a young man, a teenager, and he used to be a gang member. He used to even hold up busses at gunpoint and rob all the people on the bus. And he was in a very feared gang. And when my father in law, who was a missionary who worked with gang members when he entered his area, the guy decided to change. He laid down his weapons. He gave his life to Christ. And he got a job working in a candle factory. And in one day, he made a mistake and he got fired from his job. And so he went home and he was asking himself, what am I going to do? And he thought, okay, I have to go back to the gang. That's the only way I can survive. Nobody else is going to give me another chance. And so rather than go back to the gang, he took a gun and unfortunately shot himself. And that always stuck with me. You know, losing your job for some people can be no big deal, but for others, it can be really, you know, life and death almost. And so my bottom line is, you know, if God doesn't give up on me with all the mistakes I made in life, all the things I committed, then I shouldn't give up on the people that he sends for us to take care of.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah. It's such a powerful story, and it's really talking about grace and mercy. And like you said, the way that your own faith and your own encounter with Jesus and the love and mercy of Jesus has kind of shaped the way that you engage with your employees. There's a second part of that which is making this a policy and making this a stance. So you have this story with this one individual where you have that interaction, at what point does it become something that isn't just a case by case situation? Or maybe it still is a case by case situation, but at what point do you decide to say, hey, this is something that we actually implement as a team, this sort of grace as the best HR policy. When did that become something that was solidified for human nature?

Dylan Wilk: Yeah, actually it was with that very first case, because when I was processing it afterwards and praying about it some more, you know, that's what I felt that we should do, because my tendency is not to forgive. Honestly, my tendency is not to be filled with grace. You know, when someone steals, I don't feel like forgiving them. I don't feel like pouring my time, my resources into helping them. You know, the temptation is very strong to simply use my position, my power to to get rid of them, to retaliate. You know, but God says no. And he was so clear with me when I was praying about it that I realized, I've got to make this a public statement, because maybe if I didn't have such a close relationship with that guy, I would have easily fired him. I would have just got rid of him. But it's partly because we were so close, and I was so hurt that I prayed about the situation. And so when I did go through it afterwards praying, it was very clear to me that I have to be public with this. I had to talk about my team, and I talked to the other founders. At that time, we were still a small team and said, look, this is what I think we need to do. I think God's calling us to put in place a written no firing policy, make that public. And so they were scared, you know, of the policy. I think almost every business person would be scared of that. I've never met someone, actually, who thinks that's a good idea. Every business person I've met thinks it's a terrible idea. But over the years, I've seen how it has really helped transform a lot of people. He was the first. But we've come across others over the years and, you know, so when you make that declaration, when you put that policy down and you say, this will be it, you can't just say that and then hope everything will be okay. You have to kind of build an ecosystem around it. And so that led us down this path of really strengthening our HR team, really trying to hire people who also trained counselors who had dealt with maybe drug addicts, dealt with people with marital problems. You know, because when you say that, when you say to an employee, I'm never going to give up on you, that's like a marriage. You know, it's saying that's no divorce and you're going to uncover. So many issues that they're dealing with that you're not equipped to handle. If you're just trying to do that on your own as a business owner. And so our next step was to really strengthen our HR team and look for people. Our entire HR team is now made up of people who are very committed Christians. Some of them are counselors. We have three pastors on our team. As chaplains. We have people who have dealt with drug addicts in the past, you know, and all of these issues. We try and look for people who are going to be capable of helping our people through the worst storms of their life, because when someone messes up badly in work, you know, there can be a number of reasons for that. It could be that they're just no good at their job. You know, they haven't been trained properly, in which case the correct response is to figure out how to train them. It could be that they just don't have the skills. They'll never be able to do it, but we still hire them. I still feel that, you know, we're partly to blame for that situation. So we need to find a place to put them where they can thrive. And thankfully, our company is a lot bigger now. We can move people around, we can shuffle them and try them in different roles. You know, sometimes they were not treated well at work, sometimes they're not getting on well with their manager, but often they have a family problem. They have something going on at home that's leading them to perform badly. And those are the times when you really need to dig down and show compassion and build that trusting relationship where they can open up to you. So we have people on our team who are much better than me at this. I'm not usually the one to sit down with people when things go wrong. They're going through problems. That's not my strength I have. So we have others on the team who are good at that.

Joseph Honescko: So you're talking a lot about this in a way. Again, it's this making grace, this policy. It sounds so much like you're seeing the full person at work. You're seeing the fact that they have other factors that might be affecting their job, rather, that's at home, or maybe it's skills and just trying to adapt to that. And there seems to be an element of with the person you talked about in the original story, there was a retraining, there was a new job, there was a new role they had to step into. So talk a little bit about how that plays a part. If someone does maybe break that trust in a particular role, how do you then go about retraining them, refining that position where they might fit better or where they might? It might even be a step backwards in their career. But again, it's this way of saying, we're not going to let you go. We're not going to trust you in the same direction, but we still will find these opportunities. What does that sort of retraining look like for you? Yeah.

Dylan Wilk: So, you know, ultimately it comes from a place of looking at ourselves as shepherds, not just employers. And, you know, there's that verse in Matthew where Jesus says, you know, you can't serve both God in money. You have to choose. You can't have two gods, you know, either going to put the money first or you're going to put God first. And if you put God first, genuinely, you know, that's also very difficult when it comes to work. But when you're able to do it, then you will feel him pushing you more and more towards loving your people. And that's something that is also quite alien to a lot of business people. But I want to encourage you that you can love your people because God is faithful, and he will always put enough good people around you that you can put up with the one that you want to fire, you know? And so, yes, we start with that point as being a shepherd. And I learned something about shepherds, which is that when they have a wandering sheep, a sheep that keeps going astray, you know, what a good shepherd will do is? He will actually break the leg of the sheep and then carry the sheep around his neck while the leg heals. And that's, you know, pretty difficult work for the shepherd. He's carrying this wandering sheep around for a few weeks. But what usually happens is when the sheep is healed, he's got so used to being close to the shepherd that he doesn't wander off anymore. Now, I've never been a shepherd, so I can't 100% vouch for the veracity of that story. But I've read it and it sounds to make sense to me. So that's kind of the approach that we take with these people that we think of as wandering sheep. Okay, there has to be an element, first of all, of breaking the leg. There has to be an element where they feel the seriousness of what they did. And so we have to have the element of restitution along with and the retraining. And so that can take several forms depending on what it is. You know, there is generally some form of suspension if there's money involved, of course, they have to repay the money, and then it's usually a demotion of some sort of a move to another team where they're starting at a lower level. So we had another one just recently, and this was a girl working in our finance team, and one of her roles was to count the cash and take care of the vault. And we didn't have a strict enough policy in terms of handling the cash. So she got tempted, unfortunately, and she took around. $600, which, of course, we immediately noticed. I mean, the cash counts are continuous. So she thought she could get away with it. She knew part of our process. She didn't know the whole process. And so she didn't realize that it would be discovered very quickly. And so she was found out. And again, I prayed, you know, again, I was furious. I don't want to give you the idea that I'm an angel when it comes to these. I still get, you know, upset. I still get, you know, angry from time to time. So we sat her down just the other day with our HR head. It was me and her. And so we explained to her that she can't go back to the finance team. You know, that she can't go back to that work. And we were going to look for other work. And I said to her, you're at a crossroads with your life. You know, you can run away and you can probably start again in another company, or you can face this, and I feel like God is really reaching out to you through this, and he wants you to start again. You're still young. You can still start again. You can still build your life again. And I want that for you so badly. I don't want you to think of yourself as a thief. I don't want you to think of yourself as someone who's failed. We want to help you get through this. But you've got this decision to make. So are you willing to be a packer? If that's all we have for you? And so she cried and cried, and then she said, yes, I'm willing to do it. I want to start again. And so turns out there was something better than that. There's an opening for a trainee in our consumer research team. It's very entry level. And so she'll go there and she'll start there, you know, and we had to explain to the head of that team what she'd done and asked the head of the team, are you willing to take her? And the head of that team also thought about it. She's also a Christian. And in the end she said, okay, if this is that girl's best chance, then I'm willing to take her in. And so, you know, this is a culture that we've built in the company of second chances. It's a culture where the leaders in different teams know that from time to time, they might be faced with someone in their own team that they can't fire, and they have to find a way of helping that person. Or it might be that they're asked to bring in someone who's messed up badly in another team. And so it's something we can talk about with our leaders that this might happen. And, you know, it doesn't happen regularly. I'd say it happens maybe once a year or less, once every couple of years.

Justin Forman: That's such powerful story of what you're alluding to and what you're talking people through. And one of the many things that we were struck by filming with you guys was your HR director was talking about this idea of grace as one of the best HR policies. What I love about what you're talking about, as you're saying that it's not an easy road back, whether people have failed in their personal life, in their marriage and different things and mistakes that they've made, there's there's forgiveness, but there's still a road back. And what you're talking about is that you're outlining a path for people to choose your outlining, a path for people to take, and you're walking them through that path and taking those steps. So the entrepreneur that's listening to this is probably wrestling with the tension of saying, okay, wait a second, how do we balance this idea of like, if I get known for extending grace, will that grace be abused? And what you're saying is like, there's no limit to it, and you're embodying a lot of the seven times 70, like multiple times. When you think about this, like, what's that tension that you face of like being known for this? And at some level, could you be taking advantage for it?

Dylan Wilk: Yeah. So that's a great question. And that is the fear of a lot of business people. You know, if somebody knows I'm not going to be fired, why will I work? That's the fear. But what I found in reality is it's the other way around almost all the time. You know, that if somebody messes up and then we say to them, your family is safe, we're still going to look after you. The bottom line is we're not going to give up on you forever more. That person wants the company to thrive. And actually, we work a lot with the poor people who haven't been given a lot of chances in life. Most of our employees are from the poor, and that is life changing for them as well, because up until that point, they've always thought of themselves as disposable. You know, I'm useless, I'm worthless, I'm nothing. You know, maybe it's not the same in the American context, but over here in the Philippines, that's often the mindset of the poor. This won't last. And so when we say to them, we will not give up on you. That is life changing for them. And those people want the company to thrive. Those people want the company to flourish. And so it's often the opposite of what we think, you know. But of course, it's not just as simple as we forgive you and you carry on. People do know some of these stories. People know what those people that messed up went through to rebuild themselves and their careers in the company. But I've found, honestly that it is one of the policies I'm the most happy about that we have in our company. And again, it's not always the best for the bottom line. You know, it takes time. It takes effort. But if we're called to be good shepherds and if we lean into that role, then God will show us, you know, give us the wisdom on how to make these difficult situations come out for the best. It doesn't always work out. You know, there are times when people just choose to leave. They're found out, they can't face the shame, and then we never see them again. That's happened twice. In both cases, we tried to look for those people actually, and at least have a conversation with them, and we couldn't find them anymore. So it doesn't always work out. Sometimes people move to another role. They're not very good at that job, you know? But there isn't a single time when I regretted this policy. And, you know, I remember the story of Solomon when the Queen of Sheba came to see Solomon, and she was impressed not just by his palace and his wisdom and so on. But one thing that impressed her was how well Solomon provided for his servants. And it says that she saw, you know, the uniforms of his servants and how they served and everything. And she, as a nonbeliever, was impressed because she saw how Solomon's servants were treated. And that's always stuck with me as well, that, if we are going to give good witness to the Christian faith, then there should be something different in our companies where people see, oh, you know, there is grace extended here, and it's working. It's actually working. You know, it's not just a bleeding heart who is being taken advantage of. And, you know, we have other policies in our company as well to take care of bad behavior. So, you know, for example, if you come to work late regularly, we're going to send you to the farm and you're going to start work at 4:00 am instead of 9 a.m. for a week, you know. So we've done that a number of times and it's always works. You know, people never come to work late again after that. So we're trying to be intelligent in how we figure out how to solve behavioral issues. And I would say at least 90% of the time we figured that out with God's help. It's not our wisdom, but it's God's wisdom.

Justin Forman: Powerful story. So I want to come back to something you said earlier. You said something about this idea of like when you've made a decision to understand that this is about something more than money. It gives you a freedom to explore things that you might not otherwise have think of, and you might gives you a chance to turn things upside down. So this episode is airing right after a little bit more of the behind the movement, which is a wonderful way of looking at kind of the ins and outs of the video story of what we've produced, and Joey put together something in how I built this kind of radio labs kind of journey of telling this story. But in that story, I want you to just unpack and just kind of give a quick flyover of, like, personally, how did you come to this place of dethroning the power that money had on your life, on how you viewed money as a tool for one end and how it completely flipped. So give everybody just kind of a quick flyover of how you came to that place.

Dylan Wilk: Yeah, I mean, I was incredibly blessed because my first business became extremely successful when I was still very young. I was 25 years old when it was floated on the London Stock Exchange IPO, and it was actually the first dotcom business on the London Stock Exchange. So it flew very quickly. The business at one point had a valuation of over $1 billion, which to a 25 year old is ridiculous. You know, it's crazy. But I remember lying awake one night and I was wondering why I had everything I could imagine. I had Ferraris, Porsches, BMW. I used to go to work by helicopter if I didn't want to sit in traffic. Fly around by private jet. And I realized that even I had all this stuff. Life felt so empty and I felt very guilty about the life I was living. I was not raised rich, I was raised poor. And I realized I was not doing anything good with my life. I was just selling computer games, and I didn't deserve all of this. And I got on my knees at the side of my bed and I started to pray, Lord, why am I rich? You know, you hear a lot of people praying, Lord, why am I poor? Right? But I was praying. Why did you bless me? It made no sense. And I got a very strong sense to leave that business. So I went around the world trying to find something I could help, and eventually came to the Philippines and gave away almost all my money over the next few years to help build communities for the poor in the Philippines. And so when we started this business, it was with that background. It was with that history of knowing that no matter how much money I had, it would not make me happy. And that was not the path to happiness. In fact, I realized this big difference between pleasure and happiness. Money will buy you pleasure. You know everything that has a price tag, a new car, new clothes, new vacation, bigger house. But whatever you buy, you become bored of that after a little while and you need something else. It's like an insatiable fire. You always have to fuel it with more money, with more stuff. And happiness is very different. Happiness comes from fulfilling God's purpose with your life and from the relationships that you build. And I understood that so clearly because of this first business that I had that was all built on greed and selfishness, and it led me to feeling empty, you know? And now in human nature, when we started this second business, we made that decision at the very beginning. God, we're going to put you first. We're going to put you first. It's Matthew 6:33. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you. And so that verse that you cannot serve God and money, that used to scare me in my first business, my computer game business, because it was all about money. But in this business, thanks to that experience, we were able to put God first. And we've seen how he has been so faithful. There have been times in the past 15 years of human nature that we were on the verge of bankruptcy, and during the pandemic, we had nothing left, literally nothing left. And I remember sitting in front of my laptop and I had a list of all our employees names, just looking at those names and trying to figure out because we couldn't meet payroll, who am I going to lay off, you know, and I couldn't do it. I could not pick a single name. And I was in tears in front of my laptop. And I just pray, Lord, you said in Proverbs that those who give to the poor are lending to you, and you will repay. Well, it's time to pay up. Lord, you know that was my prayer. I've got to collect or we're not going to make it. And we have this miracle that happened a couple of weeks later where somebody posted this random video on TikTok. We didn't even use TikTok as a company, and this video somehow got a million views. We sold tens of thousands of our most profitable product, and we were okay. And I felt that God was saying, well done, son. You know, you stuck with me. I'm going to take care of you. And there've been a number of situations like that over the years where we were on the verge of bankruptcy, or we had a big cashflow crunch and God came through. And when you do put him first, when you do say to him, okay, God, I'm going to trust you on this. This is what you say. I can't see how it can work from a business point of view. So you're going to have to step in and help me. He will he will step in and he will fill in those gaps. And so, you know, money, no matter how much you have it, will never make you happy. You'll never get to the end of it. But when you decide to put God first, when you're able to make that leap and say, okay, God, this is not going to be easy, but I'm going to trust you. You get this freedom, you get this peace, even when these painful situations come, you know, bottom line, if you don't give up on people, God won't give up on you. I can just share with you that after 15 years of really making that decision to put God first, he has always come through and we've never, never regretted putting him first.

Joseph Honescko: That's powerful. Dylan. That's a great statement. I'm thinking about the way we've been talking kind of over this year on the podcast about this idea that the church is winning and that there's wins happening in the church, and that the activity of a faith driven entrepreneur, even if things look countercultural or upside down, it's a trading up. It's a victory that we have by doing things that sometimes look like defeat. And just the way you just described that, of just the freedom you feel by stepping into the grace that God has given you, and that now is kind of a ripple effect that you're offering to your employees and to the company as a whole. It's really creating this whole culture of grace and lives are being changed because of that. And so that's just an incredible story. And we're just grateful for your testimony as we come to a close here. You've already brought up so many scriptures, but we love ending every podcast episode with just what the Lord is teaching our guests recently. So is there maybe a particular verse, or just something in your quiet time or prayer that you've found that has just really spoken to you at this time?

Dylan Wilk: Yeah one of my most favorite verses is John 10:10, where Jesus said, the thief comes to steal and kill and destroy, but I have come that they should have life and live it to the full. And I love that verse. I'm always trying to find new ways to put that into action in our work, for our employees, particularly in their lives. How can you be a good shepherd? How can you bring fullness of life into your employees lifestyles? Of course, there's only so much we can do. But, you know, I'm always mulling over that verse, and we have a lot of policies that have come to us thanks to just meditating on that particular verse. Our God is a God of blessing. You know, I don't want you to feel, by the way, that I'm on the verge of bankruptcy all the time. No we're not. We're a strong company. We're a stable company. Now. I live in a nice house. My kids go to great schools. You know, we are not in need, but, you know. So I don't believe God wants you to give up everything and be poor. Poverty in the Bible is always a curse. It's never described as a blessing. So I don't want you to get the wrong idea. So it's fullness of life coming from John 10:10. How can you bring fullness of life? Don't be afraid to love your employees. Don't be afraid to get involved in some of the messy situations and just ask God for his wisdom. Lord, how am I going to bring good out of bad? How am I going to address this? So I really hope that helps.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah. Thank you so much, Dylan. Life and life to the full, abundant life. And that's what we're all desiring. And that's what's only found in Christ. So thank you so much, Dylan, for joining us. Thanks, Justin, for joining me again. And thanks to you for listening. We'll, catch you next week. Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be. We've got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There's no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org. Episode Transcript

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